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Fortessa Pit

Fortessa Pit  

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  1. 1. Fortessa Pit

    • Fixed resistances. Meaning every mob has certain types they take 100% from and rest 25%, no heal from lower damage and no randomness
      27
    • Recovery Conversion but visible on the monsters
      27


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So, it seems as people do not like the way of recovery conversion. And yet people didn't like the reflects either.

So anyone with a good suggestion as in how to improve it and keep it from soloable yet keep it challenging for a party?

 

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I "like" recovery conversion, it is what makes the dungeon challenging. 

Maybe the way that it is shown is a little bit confusing, or it should heal by the ammount of damage with the 50% reduction, not the full damage.

Now: if you are dealing 30k damage and the mob has rc on, you heal the mob for 60k :<<<<

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I'm willing to try out either of the options of the vote (but I'm not the one programming them, so that's easy to say :3)

 

My biggest gripe with pit right now is how much stronger SR feels than the best Melee/Ranged. Mobs that are vulnerable to magic die in like 2 seconds to one or two SR, and then the other five dps are struggling to clean up. Similarly, if you're playing SR and 'just testing out if that mob is magic immune' you can undo many seconds worth of melee/ranged damage with one click. Even if you're doing it right (open combat log, look for your spell casts that don't produce damage entries in the log), it still feels really bad to be overrun by a bunch of magic immune mobs with your biggest DPS classes not being able to contribute.

I still like the idea of recovery conversion, but with the way balance is on this patch, it might be a better idea to try the fixed resistance option. So my vote for now goes to trying fixed damage reductions.

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Hmm, maybe try the visible indicator for which conversion a mob has.

And if that's not enough have magic-conversion increase damage taken from physical dps as a band-aid fix. It's not pretty, but in my opinion the second big problem, besides clarity, is the damage potential.

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Recovery Conversion is a really annoying skill when dealing in parties like pit ones, since not every party in-game can be organized shamefully, and like randomaccount said, there are dps that deal way too much dmg sometimes that throw all the damage done to the trashcan (and the 50% damage dealt against the 100% dmg healed from the skill takes this even far). Whilst is a really coherent decision to have this skill, it doesnt really make the map enjoyable for most people:

I'm kinda against taking it out though, but having EVERY mob in the map use Recovery Conversion right when they see you, is quite stressing. And specially bad in case of swarming (which 90% of the times you cant avoid, and happens often since mob moves fast, and teleports or spawns randomly too) since you cant do much against the mob killing everyone, and dps cant focus on killing precisely (unless idk they have perfect aim on single-target and/or have single target skills and pray to not heal the mob). And yeah having something that indicates which damage they receive will make it less painful to deal with. It kinds of give it the raid-feels on the dungeon.

Fixed resistances might make it easier to farm solo with fly wings (even with no spawn protection at all) for certain classes since these would be aiming for specific mob they can hit probably, but it doesn't seem a bad option honestly for party.

I'm definately not against buffing physical damage inside dungeon (or nerfing magic damage?), but aware of classes like Star Emperor or Kagerou which will hit harder if so.

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The main issue with Recovery Conversion, imo is the random element to it. If every mob type has a fixed Recovery Conversion type (e.g. Vengeful Soul is always vulnerable to melee attacks but immune to ranged and magic attacks) then I think the skill is defensible as Pit would still demand a balanced party of different sources of damage, ergo mitigating the original issue of Pit being a party with one Sura to tank, one AB for support and ten Soul Reapers for DPS.


The random element to Recovery Conversion, at least in my experience, is too much for a chaotic 12-man party to handle. You see a mob, everyone wacks it, guessing which damage type it takes damage from, some learning faster than others, while others are still healing it. With all the eye-blinding effects present in the game, plus the chaos of eleven other players and the occasional happenstance of a rogue monster killing half the party from behind, imo it's a bit much for the mind to process quickly enough to adapt to in a timely manner. I'm also reticent about visual indicators as a band-aid solution simply because not everyone can handle playing with effects on.


If you know the mob's vulnerabilities and immunities beforehand then you can plan around it, and if they're healed because you use the wrong damage type to deal damage then I think that's an acceptable penalty for end-game content that seeks to diversify classes and builds necessary to clear said content, as it would then be the players' own short comings for not planning around it when that information is available. A good chunk of Ragnarok Online, as with any MMO, is learning about the content you're trying to tackle beforehand and planning around it. That's my two pence.

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This turned kinda long, so i came back and did the intro again to warn everyone this is not an amazing text, is just long. I expressed my opinions on the options we have to vote and gave an option of my own design of what I think would be a good state for the pit taking balance, replayability, challenge and punish into consideration. I kind of knew what i said was achievable with RO engine before writing it so is not far fetched in any way, and if you wanna insult me because you readed this and gained nothing then refer to DM's to not ruin the topic.

Go!

Problem: Recovery conversion is too punishing

So I think this is the major reason why people don't like the mechanic of RC (And Reflect on a similar vein) is the punish behind it, some people mentioned before and it's kinda obvious that it doesn't feel good when you missclick in a big pile of effects and heal a monster from 10% to 100% effectively ruinin the hard work of your Sacrifice GX (Or dying with reflect).

Solutions: Many imo

I can think of several solutions to different degrees of what you wanna achieve and I think different people will have different choices when they have to come up with a way to deal with a singular problem, so I will develop my opinion on the existing options and maybe throw in something of mine to the mix.

  • 1. Fixed resistances. Meaning every mob has certain types they take 100% from and rest 25%, no heal from lower damage and no randomness

I don't like this idea, but not because it doesn't work in fact it may be the best one if all you want is efficiency, but I belive is food for no brain play and what I mean with this is that it ruins the idea of keeping people engange on what they are doing, every damage type will get a target and they just gonna deal with it, plain and simple. Also boring in my opinion, but seems efficient on paper.

  • 2. Recovery Conversion but visible on the monsters

So this is winning the votation by a slight margin, why? clearly because players like punish, but what kind of punish? Fair punish which comes in the shape visibility. How much punish tho? If I can see the monster immunity and I missclicked anyway because the game is a mess of effects (because I like my effects thank you very much) that would feel bad anyway, to be the guy who ruined the Sacrifice GX dps would feel bad or good if you are a bad person. So even if Recovery Conversion remains as the choice I would think tunning it down would be ideal. I will developed visibility ideas on a different point that are also applicable here.

  • 3. Controlled randomnes

I already heard someone rolling his eyes and I am still writing this. This choice is a mix of both before and developing it even further, I would have some monsters immune to X types of damage and to differentiate they would be color coded, green is immune to ranged, black is immune to melee and blue is immune to magic(This is applicable to option 2). But a little punish keeps everyone on their toes so lets make some monsters randomly get Recovery Conversion this way we make sure no one class can dominate the server, but it will only recover a small % of damage (I don't wanna say a random number but 25%-50% sounds about right, req testing) so you gonna make your party life harder but they may be able to deal with your mistake and instead of being dmg type based (Because we have those done and with colors) it can be something else, why not AoE? this way we deal with sharpshooting killing 2/3 of the monsters or any other heavy aoe hitting class, and to indicate RC on we use a Icon on top of his head and it doesn't matter if you see the monster specifically, as long as you see the icon you know that your aoe skill will heal something and you should stop it until single target dps cleans the problem.

Conclusions?

So, I think every solution may work, the third one clearly needs much more work put into it but i went beyond the question and options because if pit is gonna be the great endgame, then it should be something where a party really organizes itself and coordinates to do it, if the killing gets too slow because of this, maybe a buff to drops is in order, maybe a system that spawns a miniboss on the map after certain kills on the pit, or minibosses with random skills (from a selected pool) roam the map with a higher drop % of the good items, daily quests to kill certain mob types for X rewards, if Lunar can truly go crazy in this piece of content to make it fun, durable and rewarding without destroying the server economy, we should support that and give meaningful feedback, specially the people that does the content and plays the game very regularly.
If you lasted this long reading, thank you.

PD: sorry for any typos, format mistakes and also Fix Rudo card please.

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I think we can all admit that you can't just throw a random group of people together and do this content without going through a frustrating experience. I don't think it's particularly difficult thing to do either, it's just kind of "annoying content".

I hate to say it but I think we should take notes from typical MMORPGS today. Consistent mechanics that are telegraphed well. RO just isn't responsive enough of a game to have split second reactions that completely destroy the party, it just simply does not handle input fast enough for that. I can't think of a major MMORPG today that punishes that much without a proper telegraph.

W/e you do, I think it will be a good next step.

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6 hours ago, Juanba said:

I'm kinda against taking it out though, but having EVERY mob in the map use Recovery Conversion right when they see you, is quite stressing.

That could work too; having recovery conversion cast often enough that you can't ignore the mechanic, but not having it trigger on every mob instantly.

If you can't realistically teleport and convenio, a big part of skipping and dodging mobs is disabled anyway. You also can't crowd-control mobs, so you're forced to kill all mobs you run into. At that point having RC trigger on a few mobs might be enough to discourage SR-only parties, because it's not worth the hassle of trying to outrun or get rid of the magic-immune mobs.

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Actually, fly wings are useless in the pit.

You have 0 immunity timer, meaning if you teleport mobs will eat your face before you even see them.

So we could add fixed resistances like world bosses use.

 

Which would mean,

1 mob can only be damaged by ranged everything else 1 dmg

1 only magic, 

1 only melee

 

this would mean you actually need people, of all 3 kinds and the mobs wouldnt heal themselves full.

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One question Lunar, are you planing to change recovery conversion itself or just the behave on pit mob? I am asking because of MVP's that have health conversion.

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I think the best way to deal with this type of content while still being enjoyable is just to give bigger and flashier animations. Because even if the skill is unfair, at least you can see the mob is using it and still have the indicator that something changed thus you must change your tactics. A good example is HTF. place in which the kimi uses reflect, but everyone can still enjoy the content bcs when she is gonna use it, she cast it long time and then she has a yellow aura. During this time you can usually just heal + wait for it to turn off. 

 

Now, the yellow animation with kimi works bcs it 's only 2 mvps and usually a solo person hitting it  so even if the change is little you can still notice it; I would suggest an animation like Kyrie Ellison with colors to be able to see what kind of inmunity the monster has at that moment; making it easier for new players to change targets depending on the current skill.

 

The easier way is just to make it possible to counter attack that skill. If it's a skill that makes it go full hp, then it should make them vulnerable to another type. Like if you are inmune to magic then be weak during that time to melee (so the melee chars can see their numbers go up and tell the magic ones to stop if they don't notice). And make this change fixes, like melee -> ranged -> magic -> melee fashion.

 

My last idea is to change the skill inmunity from -> ranged, melee, magic to elementals (so if you start healing just change to another element to still be doing dmg) while also adding the fixed resistance to each monster (like 100% ranged, but 25% melee, 25% magic). EX: A monster has a little shield sprite always so you know it has 100% magic, 25% melee, 25% ranged; but when you are attacking it it casts a little blue ball that follows it ; so you know it is now inmune and healed by water-wind-holy type damage. 

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On 15.5.2019 at 4:38 AM, Raphat said:

One question Lunar, are you planing to change recovery conversion itself or just the behave on pit mob? I am asking because of MVP's that have health conversion.

It's already split from the regular MVP recovery conversion.

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Just make it like the world bosses so that parties are discouraged to only bring soul reapers. This server is already drowning in soul reapers it needs more variety.

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